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Zzido · Newbie Joined: 11 Jun 2002 Posts: 2

I used to use VDS 3.(something) quite a while ago, I don't use VDS at all now but I decided to download VDS 4 to see how it has changed. I was quite impressed it looked pretty similar to 3 with some good changes. I forgot it was there and started getting on with other stuff for a while. I then started to clean out my HDD as I have very little space. VDS had to go as I was unlikely to use it much.

When trying to uninstall it Windows switched to the shutdown logo then froze, strange behaviour I thought so I restarted and tried to launch VDS itself, same outcome, I was a bit puzzled but couldn't be bothered searching for the problem so I left it. I didn't think much more about it till a short while later I tried to play a game (C&C: Red Alert) which asked me to unload my debugger, alot of programs don't like to be run with debuggers so this seemed fair. after playing for a while I decided to try and remove VDS again rather than risk an unsuccesful uninstall I just tried to load VDS, it worked, I then realised it didn't like the debugger so I loaded it again and sure enough same unsuccessful shutdown of windows.

This seems pretty harsh action to take against a debugger. I know that alot of programs don't like debuggers as they can be used to manipulate a program and it's protection, why doesn't VDS just show a message saying it doesn't like debuggers and refuse to run like most other programs? This would be nicer than unsuccesfully forcing my PC to shutdown, meaning I have to switch it off with the power switch restart a download and explain to very important associates why I cut them off in the middle of a chat session. I understand S.A.D.E need to protect their investment but not by causing uneccessary problems for their users.

Sorry for the long post but I needed to air my views on this I'd appreciate hearing others opinions. I don't intend to disrespect S.A.D.E or users of VDS, however I'm sure you'll agree that the methods taken to beat software piracy shouldn't harm honest users.

PGWARE · **Web Host** Joined: 29 Dec 2001 Posts: 1564

Because using a messagebox to inform the user that a debugger is active is a good way for a cracker to trace through the code and find the system shutdown api and remove it. Sure they can find it if they look but it's not as easy as it is to trace MessageBox calls. My best advise to you is turn off your debugging software and then uninstall VDS if you do not want to use it.

Zoltar · VDS Pirate Joined: 26 Dec 2001 Posts: 91

Tommy · Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2002 1:14 pm Post subject:

I entirely agree with Zzido on this topic, this isn't very acceptable at all. The most software should be allowed to do is shutdown itself and not the entire computer. I imagine compiled VDS scripts would do the same while any debugger is running Sad

Tommy

vdsalchemist · Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:59 pm Post subject:

Actually guys what is prob. happening is that when a debugger is running it activates the debugging portion of other DLL's like the kernel.dll and user32.dll. I don't think there is anything wrong with VDS persay but more than likely S.A.D.E. did not link the runtime DLL to handle the debug version of common DLL's because it would take up unnessary space. Some of the API's are different in the debug version of the common DLL's. Also why would you run a debugger all the time unless you were testing a specific API??? I know when you install MS Visual C++ versions 4.x - 6.x it loads it's debugger but it does not hook all programs. Most debugger's will only watch what you tell it. What debugger are you running if you don't mind me asking?

vdsalchemist · Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2002 3:12 pm Post subject:

I also agree with Tommy that S.A.D.E. should have placed a messagebox just to warn a person that a debugger is runing and that VDS will work unexpectedly while such software is runing. But then again I also think that the reason S.A.D.E. did not do that is because try as you may while building software you cannot control what a user will have loaded on his or her PC....All I know is that if I was running a debugger like the one zZido is running and I know that I have had problems in the past with other software while the debugger is running and then I installed new software on my PC then I would automaticly suspect the debugger was conflicting with the new software and not point blame of anykind to the new software. You see no matter what S.A.D.E. does they cannot write a runtime.dll that can figureout what every debugger out there is doing so I would bet that they just did a kill all solution to the best of their abilities. I know that is what I would have done.

PGWARE · **Web Host** Joined: 29 Dec 2001 Posts: 1564

I have to agree Hallowin oops I mean Zoltar, that SADE needs to implement better security in VDS. Anyway for now I don't think their going to change the way it is, so unload your debugger.

Zoltar · VDS Pirate Joined: 26 Dec 2001 Posts: 91

Zzido · Newbie Joined: 11 Jun 2002 Posts: 2

I agree that VDS should try to protect their software in any way they can but you can bypass shutdown as easy as bypassing a message box. The system I run VDS on is my developement system I have alot of developement tools running and I've developed software that has anti debugging protection. I just thought that shutting down a users system without warning is not a good way to protect your investment SADE run the risk of putting people of using the software.

When VDS shut down my system it did not let any running process finish and left me hanging on the shutdown screen this could give the user the impression that VDS is unstable and they shouldn;t buy SADE's software. I'm not saying thats my opinion, As I said I used VDS before with excellent results but this could make others feel this way, However why did SADE feel the need to put this protection on the uninstall procedure of VDS???? That doesn't make any sense and again could lead to the conclusion that SADE's programmers are not upto the job.

Anyway I think I'll leave it there I don't use VDS now so it doesn't matter. I wish everyone luck. Smile

Zoltar · VDS Pirate Joined: 26 Dec 2001 Posts: 91

completly agree with you, zzido

Tommy · Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2002 5:02 pm Post subject:

The uninstaller is part of V-Setup which is made with VDS. VDS's runtime DLL must be 'protected' too against debugging so that the V-Setup uninstaller shuts the computer down as well.

Tommy